Interesting chat on Conlawprofs listserv:
Me:
http://tinyurl.com/484453w
Succcinct quote pulled from Tom Friedman's NYT column today, link above, on the lid coming off the pot in the middle East, his analogy, emphasis added:
"Democracy requires 3 things: citizens — that is, people who see themselves as part of an undifferentiated national community where anyone can be ruler or ruled.
It requires self-determination — that is, voting.
And it requires what Michael Mandelbaum, author of “Democracy’s Good Name,” calls “liberty.”
“While voting determines who governs,” he explained, “liberty determines what governments can and cannot do.
Liberty encompasses all the rules and limits that govern politics, justice, economics and religion.”
And building liberty is really hard."
I kinda liked that, especially Mandelbaum's definition of 'liberty,' which we disguise by calling it 'substantive due process". It can take us all year to get that across, we hope.
I think it was Patrick Henry who said it best:
"Give me substantive due process or give me death!"
Then they strangled him...
rs
What started the discussion was this:
Me:
http://tinyurl.com/4rwsepq
In the above item from the UK's Guardian, British commentator Simon Tisdall, the assistant editor, notes that the "freedom flu" has now broken out in Syria; in looking at the causes he refers back to "The Plague," by Albert Camus, of French Algeria, which refers to unmet needs and "grievances" as the cause of sometimes much needed revolutions such as we're now seeing and participating in, e.g. Egypt, Libya, and others, no doubt under the radar, or at least, my radar. Tisdall notes an address by Defense Secretary Robert Gates urging Syria's army to mutiny, as Egypt's did in Cairo while the people took the lead in rising up, as they seem about to do in Daraa and Damascus, if not massacred first by the boy-king, the former dentist, Bashir Al-Assad.
Which brought me back to our own successful revolution and the happy circumstance that when it was over, the framers had the relative freedom of time to construct the aftermath, in what now seems a leisurly pace, indeed. After the first meeting to address the problems of functioning in bankrupt fashion under the Confederation, in Annapolis, in 1786, where only five delegates bothered to show up, the matter was postponed until the following year in Philadelphia, followed by another period to allow voting on ratification by the citizenry, not the states. We went into business under the new constitution in 1789, in N.Y., if recollection serves, on Wall Street, of all places...
We were left free to determine our own fate. Our revolution was not hijacked, the way, say, the Philippines' was, in 1898, by us.
By contrast to ours, as Hillary Clinton, the Secretary of State, pointed out after Tahrir Square, Cairo, revolutions have a way of being hijacked, citing Iran's 1979 overthrow of the hated Shah, backed by the Great Satan, of course, just as we've backed so many other villains in the name of stability over liberty, freedom, justice, democracy, equal protection of law, due process of law, criminal justice, social justice, and economic justice, meaning the chance to make a living outside the confines of crony capitalism and the wholesale looting of a nation's assets.
All the good stuff has been reserved for us, thank heavens; the rest of the world can take the hindmost; our policy. Well, it's served us, until now, when we find ourselves hated in many places abroad, especially the Middle East, and we have to decide whether these are "universal" human values, as refreshingly urged by the president, which drives the king of Saudi Arabia to considerable discomfort, he having sent in tanks to support the ruling family in neighboring Bahrain, whose Pearl Square rebellion seems to have come to little if anything so far.
I was chagrined to see the beautiful Pearl Monument, Bahrain, blown up by the government. It reminds me of the Taliban blowing up the Buddhist statuary that stood carved into the hills of Bamiyan, Afghanistan, for 800 years or so. Western technology is apparently not all bad, even in the more fundamentalist camps. We make the Saudi jet planes and tanks, of course, selling them to autocrats as part of the foreign aid package, favoring stability over, well, I don't want to repeat myself.
These weapons are less used against external threats than internal, their own people.
Our guns are pointed at their people.
For stability.
Keeping people down keeps them stable, I guess, at least for the time being.
Conlaw represents to me, among other things, the state of the soul of a country. The only problem is that the way we treat it, we focus only on Conlaw as a domestic proposition, when the fact is that how we behave abroad has a lot to do with whether our soul, to use the ancient religious term in a modern political context, but it seems to work, is healthy or corrupted. Mark Twain viewed our first acquisition of an overseas colony, The Philippines, as a corruption of the American soul in the name of what? Empire? Well, perhaps our soul had darkened with the western expansion at the expense of Mexico and the Native Americans, not necessarily in that order.
Our present excuse is to keep the world economy, critically dependent on Middle East oil, functioning, seemingly at all costs, hence the all-important stability. I get that, have benefited from it, as we all have, but now realize that there are greater prices that we will continue to have to pay than the current $4.00+/- cost of a gallon of gasoline at the pump, a bargain compared to Europe. Like the three wars we're leading: Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libya, as in lives, treasure, and international respect, spotty at best, wars so far neither winnable nor avoidable, at least by us.
Those folks seeking freedom in the Middle East may be relatively powerless, because until now unable to organize, but they're not stupid, and they're keeping score. China, apparently realizing that the same applies to its population, has taken increasing measures to block news of the Middle East rebellions from entering and being discussed, a losing proposition if ever there was one. While China's three-decade economic miracle is admirable, especially when compared to what went before, I don't admire its One Communist Party soul, or the fact that a relatively small percentage of people get the cream while the rest are forced to lick the pot. This almost reminds me of us, what with our own economic near-meltdown following the advent of the Great Recession in 2008.
It's been said that we're an introspective people who do look to the state of our soul, as though it were real. Perhaps soul means "good conscience", the opposiste of hypocrisy, consistency with our professed values.
I feel as though we've been given a wake-up call, which is bound to have an effect on fundamental attitudes over the long-haul, and thus must shape Conlaw as we proceed from here, whether in the form of cases in court (less predominant, I imagine, because of the justiciability doctrine declining to consider political matters), but certainly in our External Constitution, the one in charge of foreign affairs, presuming, of course, that it exists.
Now, that would be an interesting course in Conlaw, wouldn't it? It's probably called something else, like U.S. International Relations Policy, or somethin.'
rs
Further posts in the thread:
http://tinyurl.com/4emhfwk
Well, since we go to war using as an excuse the 'grossest' of concepts, we pledge allegiance to the U.S. of A. proclaiming "with liberty and justice for all," and everyone seems to have some concept of these, it seems reasonable for us well-read types to talk about it too, since this is what we teach, at bottom.
Since we happen to be noting the Middle East for the moment, the scholar's comments above seem worth noting. He is: Dr. Hayrettin Yücesoy, an Associate Professor of History at Saint Louis University and author of Messianic Beliefs and Imperial Politics in Medieval Islam (Columbia: South Carolina University Press, 2009) and Tatawwur al-Fikr al-Siyasi inda Ahl al-Sunna (Amman: Dar al-Bashir, 1993).
The gist seems to be that many of our preconceptions concerning the Middle East are undergoing a much needed revision in light of what we're seeing going on. Many of these are expressed in terms of admirable gross concepts.
One has to start, and end, someplace.
rs
On Mar 27, 2011, at 8:14 AM, G., Mark wrote:
I'll confess that a) I've probably said this before and b) that talk of liberty and democracy in the abstract do not strike me as particularly useful. I rather suspect most people on this listserv, most people in the tea party (though they might say they are republicans, not democrats) and most people involved with Move-On believe in liberty and democracy. Moreover, I think the vast majority can tie their understanding of democracy and liberty to some traditional understanding of liberty and democracy. There are different understandings of liberty and democracy out there, as well as different conceptions of the relationship between liberty and democracy. We will make more progress, if we can make progress in these matters, debating our different conceptions of liberty and democracy (and equality, for that matter), than talking about what Ian Shapiro has wisely called "gross concepts."
To: Mortimer S.
Cc: CONLAWPROF Prof list
Subject: Re: Democracy, Liberty
Exactly; Hitler got a lot of votes in 1932.
In light of this, it seems at least somewhat ironic that the U.S. went to (or at least excused) war in Iraq and Afghanistan with the stated goal, among others, of establishing 'democracy' rather than the broader, deeper, and perhaps more defensible goals of 'justice' or 'liberty.'
Liberty for tribal members, e.g. Libya, might be to have their tribe recognized as equal to others and for tribal justice.
Democracy as we prefer it is a Western product; justice as the Middle East sees it may certainly require popular control but not necessarily in the tradition that we trace to ancient Greece and Rome via Europe and Britain, through us.
In fact that may be just what they don't want.
rs
On Mar 27, 2011, at 6:35 AM, Mortimer S. wrote:
So liberty is actually morally prior to democracy in the American and other constitutional democracies. Liberty requires democracy, but democracy does not require liberty -- illiberal democracies are possible, very dangerous, and a real risk in the Middle East.
Which brings to mind an old expression to the effect that "an ounce of history is worth a pound of logic."
Holmes opened his "Common Law" with a similar statement (from memory): "The life of the law is experience, not logic."
To succeed, rebels anywhere need a banner, literally and figuratively, to rally supporters around. "Freedom!" as shouted by Robert the Bruce in the movie, is a good slogan, as was the French "Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite." Unfortunately for the French, their initial success in removing the monarchy went haywire when Napoleon staged his coup and decided that being a king wasn't enough, he needed to become an emperor, a venture that led to Moscow and Waterloo.
In our case, we were fortunate on many counts to have had the time and a period of relative isolation and peace to slowly craft the device which is a special interest of ours, here. We were then forced to make decisions as we go along as to what counted most in favor of liberty, justice, democracy, equality, due process, etc. That we've managed for this long is no mean feat, and not entirely an intellectual one, given the conflicts we've had to fight to keep the project moving forward, slowly and not always steadily.
It seems that we can take very little for granted for any long period of time, for as that other chestnut has it, "no bad idea ever really goes away."
On Mar 27, 2011, at 2:04 PM, Sean Wilson wrote:
... Wittgenstein can help us here. Mark's point about "gross concepts" is the point Wittgenstein makes when he says, "don't think, look!" The point being: different cultural arrangements of "liberty" are possible, and that watching, studying (and thinking about) the actual cases of these orientations can best serve to break through the confusions caused by believing in, and throwing around, a-priori notions.
Translation: "liberty" is a behavior in the way that dance is. Imagine one saying: democracy isn't possible without "dance." And imagine all the things we might see both in other countries and ours as time goes by that would have baptism under the idea "dance." And while it is indeed possible to say that certain kinds of dance are preferable to others (see Wittgenstein on connoisseur judgment), it is also the case that variations in dance may broaden our original picture of the idea. We might come to see the original picture only as an EXAMPLE of the idea. That's the key.
And so, we have absolutely nothing to fear with watching how different cultural orientations of ideas play out -- be they "theirs" or ours over time. The mistake is to assume that the truths lie in logic or definition. Always, they lie only in grammar and sense.
Regards and thanks.
Dr. Sean W.
I know that it isn't fashionable to care about the history or etymology or meaning or "essence" (to be even more heretical) of legal or political concepts, but I think that is worth the trouble to work these things out, if we want to establish justice or even just a more coherent legal and political discourse.
There are, of course, different conceptions of liberty and democracy out there, but some are more valid than others and I think that disentangling the concepts we are dealing with is the first step toward reasoned dialogue.
"Liberty" was the organizing principle of the American Revolution (and many others) and of the U.S. Constitution (and many others) and is a particularly useful idea, rooted (etymologically and historically) in the idea of equal citizenship under law. Ideas like this lose value when tendentious readings separate them too much from their origins.
So U.S. constitutional scholars should think seriously (I would argue) about what it would mean to "secure the blessings of liberty" and when tea party activists or move-on enthusiasts (for example) claim "liberty" as their goal, they should be prepared to explain how their conceptions of liberty relate to the concept in its more abstract sense. The same is true of constitutional law professors.
Of course partisans will try to appropriate widely admired values for their own factional use, but when these uses diverge too much from the central meanings that made the words attractive in the first place, we should call them on it. Semantics matter. Our role as lawyers and scholars is to assist in making the conversation more reasoned and coherent than it would otherwise have been.
So to return to the earlier discussion: "democracy" is not as important as "liberty" in a just society, but fuller liberty calls for democracy, as a vehicle for reasoned deliberation and an expression of equal citizenship under law.
On Sun, Mar 27, 2011 at 11:14 AM, Graber, Mark MGraber@law.umaryland.edu wrote:
I'll confess that a) I've probably said this before and b) that talk of liberty and democracy in the abstract do not strike me as particularly useful. I rather suspect most people on this listserv, most people in the tea party (though they might say they are republicans, not democrats) and most people involved with Move-On believe in liberty and democracy. Moreover, I think the vast majority can tie their understanding of democracy and liberty to some traditional understanding of liberty and democracy. There are different understandings of liberty and democracy out there, as well as different conceptions of the relationship between liberty and democracy. We will make more progress, if we can make progress in these matters, debating our different conceptions of liberty and democracy (and equality, for that matter), than talking about what Ian Shapiro has wisely called "gross concepts."
Subject: Re: Democracy, Liberty
Exactly; Hitler got a lot of votes in 1932.
In light of this, it seems at least somewhat ironic that the U.S. went to (or at least excused) war in Iraq and Afghanistan with the stated goal, among others, of establishing 'democracy' rather than the broader, deeper, and perhaps more defensible goals of 'justice' or 'liberty.'
Liberty for tribal members, e.g. Libya, might be to have their tribe recognized as equal to others and for tribal justice.
Democracy as we prefer it is a Western product; justice as the Middle East sees it may certainly require popular control but not necessarily in the tradition that we trace to ancient Greece and Rome via Europe and Britain, through us.
In fact that may be just what they don't want.
rs
On Mar 27, 2011, at 6:35 AM, Mortimer Se. wrote:
So liberty is actually morally prior to democracy in the American and other constitutional democracies. Liberty requires democracy, but democracy does not require liberty -- illiberal democracies are possible, very dangerous, and a real risk in the Middle East.
--
M.N.S.
Regents Professor
University System of Maryland
Visiting Professor
Georgetown University Law Center
I admire what Prof. Se. points out and agree that we, of all people, should apply our experience to point out what often happens if one does 'this' instead of 'that.' This is sometimes overlooked in the rioting on the theory of first things first, I presume.
Such terms as 'liberty' and 'justice' can be seen as the Constitution's Santa's gift-bags containing good things that we've learned from hard experience, plus what we will include in the future. Each participant tries to insert his own gift into the bag, not without opposition, as some of the gifts are hand-grenades.
On Mar 27, 2011, at 3:09 PM, Mortimer Se. wrote:
The framers of the United States Constitution saw their design for constitutional government as the application of reason and experience ("science", as they saw it), to the problems of law and justice. I like the project.